The road to (a personal) hell is paved with good intentions. How did I get myself out of the depths of Tartarus starts with understanding how I put myself there.
There is a Sufi legend of a man who taught grammar who fell into a pit of feces. He refused every man that offered him a helping hand on the count his words of concern were not grammatically correct.
If one wants to rage at the world for treating him unfairly yet he does nothing for himself or accept the helping hand then the reward one is seeking out is the rage pleasure in itself that person wants to feel every moment. Opium of the poor in spirit.Being taken out by force he or she will still seek out that pit again and again and again like a crackhead fiend. If there are no such pits then the pit will be dug.
This is exactly the kind of attitude that makes women not want to have sex with you. I can feel your bitterness through my phone screen. And women find that profoundly un-sexy.
If you want to be miserable and perpetually distrust women, you have every right to do so. But just know that that's the very thing that will ensure a woman will in fact stop having sex with you. It's self-fulfilling.
What if it turns out that he is not, in fact, an incel, and is indeed quite successful with women and/or happily married? How would that impact your perspective?
There’s a difference between maintaining your value and optionality, to cultivating potential booty calls. I think one is good for maintaining your value, frame and attractiveness. One is a betrayal of your marriage and mutually assured destruction. Mutually assured destruction is not useless. It’s a valid strategy—against a hostile. Even psychologically. Even if you’re the only one who knows about it, it will give you a confidence and swagger you wouldn’t otherwise have. And there’s always a chance your spouse finds out then it’s over. But it’s also a poisonous attitude to hold towards your marriage. To me, if you do this you’ve already turned against your spouse. Exit honorably, if it’s that bad. Exit. Don’t stick it to her. Don’t MAD. Leave, and fuck whoever you want to your heart’s content.
I try to stay desirable. Both for my husband, but also I am high value and it’s just my sense of self. I don’t talk to men. I don’t have beta orbiters. If he left me tomorrow I don’t have a backup provider. Just the knowledge that I haven’t degraded in marriage (relative to my age. Everyone degrades in time) IS my frame. My husband values me because I keep myself high value. He knows on some level I can get another man. But I don’t have a man-shaped escape hatch stashed away, waiting in the wings. That’s what Georgi took exception with, I think. The notion that you should have cultivated alternative sexual options you can call. Sure, be attractive enough you CAN attract the women you want. Including your wife. Like believe me there isn’t a single man I can immediately monkey branch to if my marriage fails. The men regularly in my life are all married dads—to my friends. And male relatives. But neither am I SOL if I ever became single.
> There’s a difference between maintaining your value and optionality, to cultivating potential booty calls.
There is. But crucially, Rian was not actually prescribing the latter. He was being provocative, not prescriptive.
He's even written recently on the subject of cheating (or actively trying to cheat) and made it clear what a generally ineffective strategy it is. Now, he never completely condemns it either, but that isn't his style. But his point to guys is (as I read it) that in pursuing abundance and optionality, they shouldn't lie to themselves about how much they actually have.
I know I am out of my league here, but I still want to comment I fail to see much of value in this article. A point here or there, but nothing that would ever lead me to turn my behavior, or more accurately hypothetical behavior, away from what I value.
In the described situation of a sexless marriage, the suggestion is the man should ready himself to have an affair. If he values sex over his marriage, then the betrayal of the marriage makes sense, but then why is he married? If he can achieve that which he values (sex) without marriage, then clearly he should not have gotten married initially or should seek divorce. If he does value his marriage over sex, then aggravated betrayal of that marriage is in direct opposition to what he values; a near definition of bad advice and will provide Pyrrhic satisfaction.
It sounds to me like energy is being misplaced here. It is true, I have no idea how to recover or heal a sexless marriage. Part of my certainty comes from the fact every marriage is complicated beyond the faculties of those not within it. Rather than applying the energy there, would it not be more effective to discuss the points leading up to the situation?
Nip the problem in the bud by identifying precursors, but also develop behaviors and strategies to prevent even those early symptoms from appearing. The man values the marriage and his wife; what can he do to keep her valuing him and the marriage? Not the cynical and valueless things like money, because there will always be someone with more or willing to spend more, nor physical attractiveness, because, again, there is always someone who will look better. How can a man discern the things that gives his life/person value, according to his wife, and then maintain them, encourage her to continue valuing them, and encourage her to value more of who and what he is?
It’s not a suggestion, no one cares what you do, or don’t do. What I’m saying is a bunch of guys got together and found out that when they work on having options, they don’t have to put up with people who take them for granted. Being attractive and charming enough to have options, same as having a FU fund prevents you from being forced to live with a boss or wife who is treating you like shit.
How far one takes it is their own choice.
It’s what guys tried, it’s what guys found works, you do you.
Very well. My sense of value still tells me that rather than work on having options, I should work on what I have. Relationships are often an example of something that when you prepare for it to fail, you cause the failure, intentionally or not. After all, is it not taking it or its state for granted if you shift your focus away from working on it to working on something else?
The road to (a personal) hell is paved with good intentions. How did I get myself out of the depths of Tartarus starts with understanding how I put myself there.
There is a Sufi legend of a man who taught grammar who fell into a pit of feces. He refused every man that offered him a helping hand on the count his words of concern were not grammatically correct.
If one wants to rage at the world for treating him unfairly yet he does nothing for himself or accept the helping hand then the reward one is seeking out is the rage pleasure in itself that person wants to feel every moment. Opium of the poor in spirit.Being taken out by force he or she will still seek out that pit again and again and again like a crackhead fiend. If there are no such pits then the pit will be dug.
This is exactly the kind of attitude that makes women not want to have sex with you. I can feel your bitterness through my phone screen. And women find that profoundly un-sexy.
If you want to be miserable and perpetually distrust women, you have every right to do so. But just know that that's the very thing that will ensure a woman will in fact stop having sex with you. It's self-fulfilling.
This is how you tell everyone you have no frame at all
What if it turns out that he is not, in fact, an incel, and is indeed quite successful with women and/or happily married? How would that impact your perspective?
You know what's funny, rian is married.
I’ve been enjoying WMP, lately! Blunt and to the point!
💊👑
Also, it’s not “Too much evo-psych”, it’s just “pattern recognition”. Hard to ignore it!
Straight to dick measuring and chest puffing. Wonder what that means...
There’s a difference between maintaining your value and optionality, to cultivating potential booty calls. I think one is good for maintaining your value, frame and attractiveness. One is a betrayal of your marriage and mutually assured destruction. Mutually assured destruction is not useless. It’s a valid strategy—against a hostile. Even psychologically. Even if you’re the only one who knows about it, it will give you a confidence and swagger you wouldn’t otherwise have. And there’s always a chance your spouse finds out then it’s over. But it’s also a poisonous attitude to hold towards your marriage. To me, if you do this you’ve already turned against your spouse. Exit honorably, if it’s that bad. Exit. Don’t stick it to her. Don’t MAD. Leave, and fuck whoever you want to your heart’s content.
I try to stay desirable. Both for my husband, but also I am high value and it’s just my sense of self. I don’t talk to men. I don’t have beta orbiters. If he left me tomorrow I don’t have a backup provider. Just the knowledge that I haven’t degraded in marriage (relative to my age. Everyone degrades in time) IS my frame. My husband values me because I keep myself high value. He knows on some level I can get another man. But I don’t have a man-shaped escape hatch stashed away, waiting in the wings. That’s what Georgi took exception with, I think. The notion that you should have cultivated alternative sexual options you can call. Sure, be attractive enough you CAN attract the women you want. Including your wife. Like believe me there isn’t a single man I can immediately monkey branch to if my marriage fails. The men regularly in my life are all married dads—to my friends. And male relatives. But neither am I SOL if I ever became single.
> There’s a difference between maintaining your value and optionality, to cultivating potential booty calls.
There is. But crucially, Rian was not actually prescribing the latter. He was being provocative, not prescriptive.
He's even written recently on the subject of cheating (or actively trying to cheat) and made it clear what a generally ineffective strategy it is. Now, he never completely condemns it either, but that isn't his style. But his point to guys is (as I read it) that in pursuing abundance and optionality, they shouldn't lie to themselves about how much they actually have.
I know I am out of my league here, but I still want to comment I fail to see much of value in this article. A point here or there, but nothing that would ever lead me to turn my behavior, or more accurately hypothetical behavior, away from what I value.
In the described situation of a sexless marriage, the suggestion is the man should ready himself to have an affair. If he values sex over his marriage, then the betrayal of the marriage makes sense, but then why is he married? If he can achieve that which he values (sex) without marriage, then clearly he should not have gotten married initially or should seek divorce. If he does value his marriage over sex, then aggravated betrayal of that marriage is in direct opposition to what he values; a near definition of bad advice and will provide Pyrrhic satisfaction.
It sounds to me like energy is being misplaced here. It is true, I have no idea how to recover or heal a sexless marriage. Part of my certainty comes from the fact every marriage is complicated beyond the faculties of those not within it. Rather than applying the energy there, would it not be more effective to discuss the points leading up to the situation?
Nip the problem in the bud by identifying precursors, but also develop behaviors and strategies to prevent even those early symptoms from appearing. The man values the marriage and his wife; what can he do to keep her valuing him and the marriage? Not the cynical and valueless things like money, because there will always be someone with more or willing to spend more, nor physical attractiveness, because, again, there is always someone who will look better. How can a man discern the things that gives his life/person value, according to his wife, and then maintain them, encourage her to continue valuing them, and encourage her to value more of who and what he is?
It’s not a suggestion, no one cares what you do, or don’t do. What I’m saying is a bunch of guys got together and found out that when they work on having options, they don’t have to put up with people who take them for granted. Being attractive and charming enough to have options, same as having a FU fund prevents you from being forced to live with a boss or wife who is treating you like shit.
How far one takes it is their own choice.
It’s what guys tried, it’s what guys found works, you do you.
Very well. My sense of value still tells me that rather than work on having options, I should work on what I have. Relationships are often an example of something that when you prepare for it to fail, you cause the failure, intentionally or not. After all, is it not taking it or its state for granted if you shift your focus away from working on it to working on something else?
Okay